My Defense For Israel, My Response To Cathy (giannina)

i told you it was coming. lol  i stumbled onto this post while “tag surfing” and i chose to write my response to the blog here as well as a comment on the post. you can read the blog here. i also had to do it this way because obviously my previous comments were taken off after being “moderated”. i encourage anyone to say anything when it comes to commenting on my blog, cause if i disagree, either i’ll post a reply comment or i’ll write another post about it (if it is necessary). but deleting comments because they differ from your beliefs is wrong (that’s what i believe 🙂 )  so here we go:

in response to the article “who is abraham’s seed?”:

how can you talk about the promise by only quoting two old testament verses? but if you want to go new testament then…

romans 11 says much about this (in fact romans 8-11 says a lot about this).

“I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew…” (romans 11:1-2a)

“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor,eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear,down to this very day.” (romans 11:6-8)

“So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.” (romans 11:11)

“Then you will say, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.” (romans 11:19-20)

“For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers:a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (romans 11:24-25)

and then the clincher:

And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion,he will banish ungodliness from Jacob; and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins. As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. ” (romans 11:26-29)

so let’s recap. paul asks if God has rejected His people. he replies no. then paul asks if israel has stumbled to the point of falling (meaning never to recover). paul answers that as no. paul then states that BECAUSE God hardened israel’s heart, salvation was able to come to us (cause God wanted us too…not just israel) and we should live to make israel jealous. paul encourages the gentile church in rome not to be haughty in all of this because we can be cut off too. but then paul says how glorious will it be when God reconnects them to the vine, for “God has the power to graft them in again.”

paul goes on to say that one day “ALL OF ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.” and why? because GOD’S GIFTS AND CALLINGS (also meaning covenants) ARE IRREVOCABLE. the things God promised abraham are still in play because He made an everlasting covenant with them (“And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. ” – gen 17:7). if God were to break His covenant with israel, that would make God a liar and cause Him to contradict His character (which God cannot do according to 2 timothy 2:13 – “if we are faithless, He remains faithful—for He cannot deny Himself.“)

also God has made one other everlasting covenant…

“When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.” (genesis 9:16)

that’s the covenant He made with noah saying that He would never flood the earth again. so next time you think that God can break a covenant (like israel’s), just remember the flood. if God could break a covenant, He would of flooded the earth already again (cause we as unbelieving nations are far more worthy of judgment). and if you desire God to break an everlasting covenant, doesn’t that mean your wishing death upon the world? cause if He breaks covenant with israel, he breaks all His covenants…including the flood.

i challenge you to research how important the word “covenant” is in scripture.

i hope this didn’t sound too harsh, but i did want to make it firm. 🙂


6 comments on “My Defense For Israel, My Response To Cathy (giannina)

  1. timglass says:

    I see your point.But is the Israel Paul speaks just his countrymen, or the faithful?I know he desired for them to all come to Christ, but as far as God’s promises go…”if you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works of Abraham?” (John 8:39)If it is in a “faith” sense the covenant would still be upheld. Since Abraham is our father in faith.I certainly agree with you in our lack of knowledge of what “covenant” really means.God’s grace be yours!

  2. eyesandwings says:

    i see what you are saying. before that paul talks about that in romans 9:6-8 :”But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but ‘Through Isaac shall your offspring be named’. This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.”paul then ties that into God’s election.”For this is what the promise said: About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.”now God’s election is a huge issue. it’s probably the hardest to understand issue about God. it has been such a controversy since calvinism and arminianism. the word is called predestination. i will not get into that debate here, but paul talks about it (and i believe this issue does have to be dealt with eventually when discussing God and israel).but then paul makes his tie from chapter 9’s comments to chapter 11 by saying in romans 10 that:”Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.” and “For the Scripture says, Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”but paul doesn’t stop there. THAT’S where he puts the great evangelist calling.”How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent?”can you hear his passion? he knows that israel can be saved…that although not all ARE children of abraham…all CAN be children of abraham. paul sees the covenant still operational but israel has to do THEIR PART to enter into it. and he cries out…how can they even know about this unless someone tells them?!it makes sense because how many times did God judge israel for “breaking the covenant”? but that is only on israel’s side. God many times declares that “although you have forgotten and forsaken me, i will not forsake you.”we can miss out on God’s covenant because we don’t do our part, but that still doesn’t mean God throws the whole thing away. if He did, one screw up and we would be…i just realized half this stuff while typing it, so thank you tim!!! you have helped some puzzle pieces to come together for me. i am finding out more and more that if paul ties his comments from romans 9 into his comments in romans 11 together, then i have to find out how he did it. most people naturally have their minds stuck in romans 9 (not you tim 🙂 ) but God wants us to make the connection and transition to romans 11.thank you tim!!!!

  3. robertroels says:

    It would be worth researching “covenant” in scripture, however after many years of studying and believing scripture to be the Word of God, I came to the conclusion it may not be.Since that time, I have found out that others have come to the same conclusion and evidence is mounting against the veracity of the Bible as a whole, so if a few passages didn’t exist in the original manuscripts but exist today, doesn’t it make the two arguments moot?

  4. eyesandwings says:

    i would totally agree…but in a different point. my view is that if there is some contradictory in scripture that cannot be reconciled…then the whole God and Bible thing is a hoax and a major deception. that is why i am so passionate about defending israel…because if God has thrown away His promises for israel, then it has the potential to cause everything to crumble into just another pack of lies. :-)now, what you’re talking about is simply a larger picture of mine. if the Bible itself doesn’t hold up, then everything is called into question, kinda like when a police officer is convicted of something…everything they have done for the service is called into question and evidence is re-examined and sometimes thrown out.i would encourage you robert to keep seeking and searching out the accuracy of the BIble. the Bible (and christianity) is too important to throw away with just a few months or years of research. keep digging. either it will make your findings more rooted and grounded, or it will keep your “convictions” called into question. do whatever it takes to find out the truth fully. i’ve spoken to atheists who have traveled to libraries overseas in europe (where the original documents are) to prove christianity wrong only to become converted. God makes a promise…that He will be found be anyone who seeks for Him with ALL THEIR HEART. i encourage you to take that path once more. 🙂 (i also would encourage you to read “more than a carpenter” by josh mcdowell…a post-atheist…not that i’m saying you’re an atheist…lol)thanks for your comment robert.

  5. Idetrorce says:

    very interesting, but I don’t agree with youIdetrorce

  6. Matthew says:

    🙂 that’s fine. thanks for the comment though! why don’t you agree?

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